Hi guys,         Having been dancing now for about a year a question still comes into my mind about how close a hold to start with, especially when dancing with someone new and unknown. Clearly, it needs to be quite close to allow a definite lead, but would not like to make her uncomfortable, however, holding too far away might give the wrong impression that you are uncomfortable with physical contact. Is there a general rule of thumb to be follwed?  Cheers,         Will

• So, how close do you start?   WildBill (William Quinn)   Thursday 3rd April 2003, 2:41 pm
  • So, how close do you start?   sweavo (Steve Carter)   Wednesday 30th April 2003, 2:23 pm
    • So, how close do you start?   Tom   Wednesday 30th April 2003, 10:34 pm
    • So, how close do you start?   Jazzman (O Akman)   Wednesday 30th April 2003, 3:29 pm
      • So, how close do you start?   sweavo (Steve Carter)   Thursday 8th May 2003, 4:54 pm
  • So, how close do you start?   andy   Friday 4th April 2003, 12:44 am
    • So, how close do you start?   Tom   Wednesday 30th April 2003, 10:25 pm
      • So, how close do you start?   sweavo (Steve Carter)   Thursday 8th May 2003, 4:57 pm
        • So, how close do you start?   Jazzman (O Akman)   Thursday 8th May 2003, 5:46 pm
          • So, how close do you start?   andy   Thursday 8th May 2003, 9:09 pm
            • So, how close do you start?   The Vardon Voo ( )   Tuesday 27th May 2003, 4:32 pm
              • So, how close do you start?   andy   Wednesday 28th May 2003, 12:15 am
                • So, how close do you start?   The Vardon Voo ( )   Wednesday 28th May 2003, 1:48 am
                  • So, how close do you start?   the_bishop (Billy Bob)   Wednesday 4th June 2003, 2:34 pm
                    • So, how close do you start?   The Vardon Voo ( )   Friday 13th June 2003, 3:16 am
                  • So, how close do you start?   Dave G   Thursday 29th May 2003, 11:52 am
                  • So, how close do you start?   andy   Wednesday 28th May 2003, 11:59 pm
                    • So, how close do you start?   The Vardon Voo ( )   Friday 30th May 2003, 3:04 am
                  • So, how close do you start?   Cosilongo (Matthew Cooke)   Wednesday 28th May 2003, 1:23 pm
                    • So, how close do you start?   andy   Thursday 29th May 2003, 12:18 am
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There's a similar thread to this on the chat part of this board which you might like to read. But the brief answer is to let the lady decide. Offer the dance hold and let her walk up to you and hold her at that distance, don't pull her in.  BEGIN QUOTE  Hi guys,         Having been dancing now for about a year a question still comes into my mind about how close a hold to start with, especially when dancing with someone new and unknown. Clearly, it needs to be quite close to allow a definite lead, but would not like to make her uncomfortable, however, holding too far away might give the wrong impression that you are uncomfortable with physical contact. Is there a general rule of thumb to be follwed?  Cheers,         Will  END QUOTE

BEGIN QUOTE  Clearly, it needs to be quite close to allow a definite lead, but would not like to make her uncomfortable, however, holding too far away might give the wrong impression that you are uncomfortable with physical contact. Is there a general rule of thumb to be follwed?  END QUOTE  This is not a question that has occurred to me so far (also dancing ~1 year) so either 1) I get it right every time 2) I am an insensitive bastard 3) It's not that important 4) Some blend of the above I have noticed though that when I start to dance with a girl I've not danced with before I will often start just mambo-ing in no grip at all, let her get her feet sorted, maybe shine a bit or just a big grin, then dive into a cross-body and start mixing it up. I dance NY style which requires partners to be very close, so as long as nobody's gender-specific parts are getting involved and there's room for elbows and things to get through the gap, the closer the better. From my limited experience, uncertainty/insecurity on the part of the man are far worse crimes than being physically too close. As long as she's confident it's a matter of technique and not a bit of perving then she seems to be happy!

BEGIN QUOTE  I have noticed though that when I start to dance with a girl I've not danced with before I will often start just mambo-ing in no grip at all, let her get her feet sorted, maybe shine a bit or just a big grin, then dive into a cross-body and start mixing it up.  END QUOTE  Does the music playing play any part?  BEGIN QUOTE  let her get her feet sorted,  END QUOTE  I take it she is leading then

BEGIN QUOTE  let the lady decide. Offer the dance hold and let her walk up to you and hold her at that distance, don't pull her in.  END QUOTE  Good advice. BTW I went to a class in Leeds recently and was surprised to encounter much closer holds than I'm used to in Cardiff (which was nice...)

when I start to  BEGIN QUOTE  dance with a girl I've not danced with before I will often start just mambo-ing in no grip at all, let her get her feet sorted, maybe shine a bit or just a big grin, then dive into a cross-body and start mixing it up.  END QUOTE  Good advice I was given by my teacher is to start a dance with a new partner by 'gauging' their ability and style: lead a ladies turn, then swap to a right hand to right hand hold and do wrist lock, neck lock, ladies turn. You can learn a lot from this - from basic things (i.e. she doesn't know what a wrist lock is...) to how fast she responds. She'll also learn about how you lead - do you look after her, how strong is your lead, and so on.

BEGIN QUOTE  Does the music playing play any part? I take it she is leading then  END QUOTE  I'm getting a really sarcastic tone off that post so I'll leave it a while and either you'll explain what you mean or it'll sound less sarky when I read it next time.

BEGIN QUOTE  : offer the dance hold and let her walk up  : to you Good advice.  END QUOTE  Dancing New Yorikan I'm forever being told I leave too much space, despite being one of the least bashful dancers I know

BEGIN QUOTE  Dancing New Yorikan I'm forever being told I leave too much space, despite being one of the least bashful dancers I know  END QUOTE  I too think we dance way to far apart in the UK. I am at loss to explain why though.

British sense of reserve. We only get close physically to people of the opposite sex when we are going to do, well lets say rather more than dance with them. Though (and for what it's worth) it's my experience that this often slowly disappears as dancers get more experienced.  BEGIN QUOTE  I too think we dance way to far apart in the UK. I am at loss to explain why though.  END QUOTE

BEGIN QUOTE  British sense of reserve. We only get close physically to people of the opposite sex when we are going to do, well lets say rather more than dance with them. Though (and for what it's worth) it's my experience that this often slowly disappears as dancers get more experienced.  END QUOTE  By "British sense of reserve" etc are we talking about the issue of 'chubbiness'. Some women (a very small minority, unfortunately) actually get a sense of satisfaction if the subject arises due to proximity, but as a rule of thumb I suggest that one should probably be careful who he dances hip-to-hip with if he is at all prone to expressing it. N.B. This etiquette does not seem to apply to drunk Latinos dancing with tourist beginners in places like 'Bar Salsa', apparently.

BEGIN QUOTE  By "British sense of reserve" etc are we talking about the issue of 'chubbiness'.  END QUOTE  If you are talking about being overweight, no. If that's an obscure reference to anything else, probably not either. My words mean exactly what they say.  BEGIN QUOTE  Some women (a very small minority, unfortunately) actually get a sense of satisfaction if the subject arises due to proximity, but as a rule of thumb I suggest that one should probably be careful who he dances hip-to-hip with if he is at all prone to expressing it.  END QUOTE  If that's meant to be some sort of reference to getting an erection whilst dancing then you could save yourself at lot of typing by simply saying so. However it has nothing to do with the subject under discussion in this thread.  BEGIN QUOTE  N.B. This etiquette does not seem to apply to drunk Latinos dancing with tourist beginners in places like 'Bar Salsa', apparently.  END QUOTE  Drunk or not, beginners or not, it is a fact that getting physically close to people of the opposite sex (without any actual sexual intention)is something that people of some ethnic backgrounds are brought up to do. Brits aren't one of them. Which tends to lead to British couples dancing with huge amounts of space between them whereas couples of other nationalities tend to dance much closer together. That's a fact. It's also a fact that the simple operation of the laws of physics mean that it's easier to dance close together. And that is all we are talking about.

Sorry, I was just trying to add a humorous note to the debate in a typically British beat-about-the-bush kind of way which had nothing to do with being overweight. No offence was meant. As for the final comment, perhaps it is a little unfair but then I do know a few girls who have been completely put off Salsa by opportunist groin-grinding from people that were clearly using their 'culture' as justification for completely inappropriate behaviour in venues where consumption of lots of alcohol somehow made it 'normal'. On a practical note relevant to the discussion, dancing very close can cause arousal (welcome or otherwise) for people that aren't used to dancing that way. Perhaps it's the guys who keep their distance because they don't want their partner to think they might be getting excited, whether they are or not. I know I used to feel quite uncomfortable if a girl came in really close for that very reason. I think that's why New York style has caught on so well in Britain - it's just dancing with no room for confusing it for anything else and suits our culture.

I'm not sure that not dancing close is anything to do with British culture. After all, ballroom dances such as the Waltz and Foxtrot which are done in a close hold (bodies touching) have been danced in this country since early in the 19th century.  BEGIN QUOTE  Sorry, I was just trying to add a humorous note to the debate in a typically British beat-about-the-bush kind of way which had nothing to do with being overweight. No offence was meant. As for the final comment, perhaps it is a little unfair but then I do know a few girls who have been completely put off Salsa by opportunist groin-grinding from people that were clearly using their 'culture' as justification for completely inappropriate behaviour in venues where consumption of lots of alcohol somehow made it 'normal'. On a practical note relevant to the discussion, dancing very close can cause arousal (welcome or otherwise) for people that aren't used to dancing that way. Perhaps it's the guys who keep their distance because they don't want their partner to think they might be getting excited, whether they are or not. I know I used to feel quite uncomfortable if a girl came in really close for that very reason. I think that's why New York style has caught on so well in Britain - it's just dancing with no room for confusing it for anything else and suits our culture.  END QUOTE

BEGIN QUOTE  Sorry, I was just trying to add a humorous note to the debate in a typically British beat-about-the-bush kind of way which had nothing to do with being overweight. No offence was meant.  END QUOTE  Oh sorry. One of the big failings of the internet is that you can't see the person making the remarks and that does mean humour can be misinterpreted sometimes as I couldn't see the smile you probably had on your face when you wrote that.  BEGIN QUOTE  As for the final comment, perhaps it is a little unfair but then I do know a few girls who have been completely put off Salsa by opportunist groin-grinding from people that were clearly using their 'culture' as justification for completely inappropriate behaviour in venues where consumption of lots of alcohol somehow made it 'normal'.  END QUOTE  I think you'll find that there are a few non latins guilty of doing that (with or without the assistance of alcohol) as well. It is (especially for the girls) one of the problems of dancing. Interestingly I have also had it done to me by a woman (on a couple of occasions over the years). I must admit I didn't quite know where to look and what to do, if you see what I mean - it was totally unexpected and both the women were strangers. Oh and although I'm told I'm not ugly, I'm certainly not film star material either so I don't think it was any instant attraction to my body.  BEGIN QUOTE  On a practical note relevant to the discussion, dancing very close can cause arousal (welcome or otherwise) for people that aren't used to dancing that way. Perhaps it's the guys who keep their distance because they don't want their partner to think they might be getting excited, whether they are or not.  END QUOTE  I think we all still have a smattering of Victorian prudery in us which leads guys to have that worry and girls to think that all men are going to take advantage. It's probably fairly well back in people's minds, but it's still there. In fact (for the most part) it's not true. Which is why you'll find people of non British descent who never went through the Victorian prudery era worry about it a lot less and generally dance a lot closer. At least, in my opinion.  BEGIN QUOTE  I know I used to feel quite uncomfortable if a girl came in really close for that very reason.  END QUOTE  I think we all went through that phase to some extent or another.  BEGIN QUOTE  I think that's why New York style has caught on so well in Britain - it's just dancing with no room for confusing it for anything else and suits our culture.  END QUOTE  Not sure I quite follow that - you can dance NY style (on whatever beat) close if you want to. But whatever style and however close, it's just dancing. That is unless both partners agree otherwise.

BEGIN QUOTE  I'm not sure that not dancing close is anything to do with British culture. After all, ballroom dances such as the Waltz and Foxtrot which are done in a close hold (bodies touching) have been danced in this country since early in the 19th century.  END QUOTE  That's not quite true. The waltz wasn't danced with bodies touching until the early part of the twentieth century and even then it was only danced that way by competition dancers. Foxtrot wasn't invented until then, predecesors to the Foxtrot such as the one step and the two step were danced with a gap between the partners. As also were the various "country" and "Old Time" dances. Historically that's why the "Latin" dances including the most recent "Latin" dances such as salsa are danced in a close hold but with a gap of a few inches (usually!!) between the partners. The "revolution" which brought bodies into contact (which had a lot to do with Irene and Vernon Castle) in what then became the "modern Ballroom" dances never took place in the latin community which was not part of "polite society" in the US (much less Europe) at that time. The Latins (particularly the Cuban Latins) developed the dance steps and styles from English and French country and old time dancing and set them to the (then) new Latin music emerging with it's mixture of African and European roots to create the early latin dances like danzon. The close hold without bodies touching never changed, even when the dances were taken up by the rest of the world in the late 1930's/1940's.

BEGIN QUOTE  Perhaps it's the guys who keep their distance because they don't want their partner to think they might be getting excited, whether they are or not. I know I used to feel quite uncomfortable if a girl came in really close for that very reason. I think that's why New York style has caught on so well in Britain - it's just dancing with no room for confusing it for anything else and suits our culture.  END QUOTE  Maybe this varies around the country, but in my experience, some of the same people who are big on New York style are people who you could also find at a Soca or Dancehall bashment, or at a blues. So I don't think that they are dancing New York style because they are uncomfortable dancing close to a woman! dG

BEGIN QUOTE  British sense of reserve. We only get close physically to people of the opposite sex when we are going to do, well lets say rather more than dance with them.  END QUOTE  I just had this image of Mr Cholmondeley-Warner talking about all sorts of "sordid nastiness and sleazy dirtiness"  BEGIN QUOTE  Oh sorry. One of the big failings of the internet is that you can't see the person making the remarks and that does mean humour can be misinterpreted sometimes as I couldn't see the smile you probably had on your face when you wrote that.  END QUOTE  No worries. Actually yes, I was enjoying a moment of mirth but it seems not to have tanslated all that well across the ether.

BEGIN QUOTE  :As for the final comment, perhaps it is a little unfair but then I do know a few girls who have been completely put off Salsa by opportunist groin-grinding from people that were clearly using their 'culture' as justification for completely inappropriate behaviour in venues where consumption of lots of alcohol somehow made it 'normal'.  END QUOTE  Yes I have seen this so many times. It is usually preceeded by "let me show you how to dance la salsa" then is followed by lots of groin rubbing. These men will always do this to beginners, never experienced dancers, and the beginners go along with it looking nervous because usually a) the guy is a more "experienced dancer and knows what he is doing" and b) the beginner might be thinking - "oh so this IS how you dance salsa, well I'm not sure if I like it much" Which is pretty awful isn't it - the guy has all the power. Someone tried this to my girlfriend (who can dance) and she told him that she was uncomfortable with the way he was dancing and he proceed to shuffle about out of time for the rest of the track. He couldn't even dance a salsa step anyway and mistook my Girlfriend for someone he could take advantage of. He was very embarrassed and served him right! some venues are worse than others for this behaviour, normally the venues like bar salsa and Ronnie scotts where there are less "serious" dancers

BEGIN QUOTE  some venues are worse than others for this behaviour, normally the venues like bar salsa and Ronnie scotts where there are less "serious" dancers  END QUOTE  Bar Salsa was exactly what I had in mind when I made the comment!