I have been going to classes about twice a week for the last eight months. I go to different classes and teachers so that I can get gain an all round experience of the different styles of salsa. What I have found without exception is that all the teachers teach salsa in a routine framework so that you could get four distinct moves or figures rolled into a routine. I have to say I'm getting fed up with learning salsa this way. Learning a routine in a class even with complicated moves is not a measure of how good a dancer you are but how good you are at copying the intructor and remembering. It is a challenge for observation and memory that is all, not dancing skill. Sooo why teach salsa this way, is there not any other way? I have a salsa video tape which demonstrates each move seperately which makes it very easy to follow. Surely this method could be taught live in a class. The format could go as follows. The instructor demos the move. Then goes through it slowly until the class has got it. Then it is practiced with music even if it just four bars long. The students are then told to freestyle it in ther own time with music without any calling. Here the students might want to begin with a basic mambo. Okay so that is the first move learned. The second move is taught in the same way. How the students put them together is up to them. So there we have two moves learned which might take up to eight bars. I think eight bars of salsa is quite enough for one evening. Maybe four bars is enough even if the class only takes half an hour, at least that is one move the students can take home with them that they have got throughly fixed in their body/mind system. At a salsa party if you are dancing spontaneously in the moment you do not dance class taught routines. That is dancing in the head which will curtail your natural expression. flowrite

• routines   flowrite (clive abbey)   Sunday 23rd February 2003, 3:54 pm
  • routines   les (Les)   Monday 10th March 2003, 7:07 pm
  • routines   les (Les)   Saturday 1st March 2003, 5:04 pm
    • routines   pullgees (clive abbey)   Wednesday 5th March 2003, 6:41 pm
      • routines   Bob   Thursday 6th March 2003, 3:03 pm
  • routines   Dave F (Dave Fenton)   Tuesday 25th February 2003, 9:56 am
    • routines   Nickylg (Nicky Lloyd Greame)   Tuesday 25th February 2003, 10:41 am
      • routines   flowrite (clive abbey)   Wednesday 26th February 2003, 1:07 am
        • routines   Brendan (Brendan Brolly)   Wednesday 26th February 2003, 4:58 pm
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BEGIN QUOTE  I have been going to classes about twice a week for the last eight months. I go to different classes and teachers so that I can get gain an all round experience of the different styles of salsa. What I have found without exception is that all the teachers teach salsa in a routine framework so that you could get four distinct moves or figures rolled into a routine. I have to say I'm getting fed up with learning salsa this way. Learning a routine in a class even with complicated moves is not a measure of how good a dancer you are but how good you are at copying the intructor and remembering. It is a challenge for observation and memory that is all, not dancing skill. Sooo why teach salsa this way, is there not any other way? I have a salsa video tape which demonstrates each move seperately which makes it very easy to follow. Surely this method could be taught live in a class. The format could go as follows. The instructor demos the move. Then goes through it slowly until the class has got it. Then it is practiced with music even if it just four bars long. The students are then told to freestyle it in ther own time with music without any calling. Here the students might want to begin with a basic mambo. Okay so that is the first move learned. The second move is taught in the same way. How the students put them together is up to them. So there we have two moves learned which might take up to eight bars. I think eight bars of salsa is quite enough for one evening. Maybe four bars is enough even if the class only takes half an hour, at least that is one move the students can take home with them that they have got throughly fixed in their body/mind system. At a salsa party if you are dancing spontaneously in the moment you do not dance class taught routines. That is dancing in the head which will curtail your natural expression. flowrite  END QUOTE  I agree, most classes 'teach' (I use the word 'teach' very loosly, I prefer the to use the word 'demonstrate') long turn patterns lasting 20 or more bars, of that 20 bars there's probably about 6 or so distinct moves. Of this 6 there's probably only 1 or 2 that I like, the rest is just 'filler'. One of the reasons given for this method is it 'teaches' you to join combinations together, another is 'that's how everyone else does it'. By the end it's more of a memory challenge than a physical one. I personally prefer to teach much smaller combinations (looking back over my class notes they average around 10 bars (thats 5 cross bodies) of which there is usually 2 distinct parts joined together. If you're teaching the combination and not just demo'ing it and also reviewing the previous weeks combination then I feel for most people thats more than enough information to consolidate in a 1 hour session. Just my thoughts but then again I'm not in it to make money, I just enjoy the teaching and dancing!

I agree with both you and Dave... and as in other recent messages (see leading and following in UKsalsachat) there are still a handfull of teachers who do prefer to teach smaller 'parts' of routines - and break them down thoroughly into managable sized chunks - which you can remember and use when freestyling. Also as mentioned though... you have to spot the teachers who are catering for the minority as unfortunately not many people do share your opinion - they go to a class expecting to learn a really long and complicated turn patter - and indeed want to learn salsa that way (and still I've heard these same people say they can never remember it from one week to the next - it doesn't make sense!!!!!) Sounds like Dave and I are of the same mindset... our classes (as in The Salsaholics) are always small - but this allows us to give everyone some individual attention (and we always dance with the students.. I'm not a believer in standing in the middle all the time either - as many mistakes leaders and followers make can not be seen, they need to be felt). I don't know where you live Flowrite, but if you're in Leeds try us out, or in Sheffield try Dave out - sounds like you might be pleasantly surprised. Nicky x

Thanks for your replies, I live in the South West so no chance of attending your classes but teaching long routines is not confined to my area. Parties are even worse for this. Most parties start with a couple of lessons before the party gets going where the insructors seem to demonstrate their most impossible mind boggling routines for these occasions. Perhaps as guest teachers they think they have to impress. I have a video tape by Robert Charlemagne where each move is presented seperately I only wish classes were like that.     I have never met anyone who remembers the routine they were taught more than two weeks ago and each week there is usually a new routine that bears no similarity to the previous week.   I have reached a point where I have had enough of classes, all I want to do is practise what I have learned. It has just occured to me and I might as well ask both of you this. I don't really know why the X body is emphasised so much as most moves can be initiated without it. Whereas the open break,is that the right name? Thats the one where you push away on 1 and pull in on 2, is vital to go into varies positions such as putting the girl in wristlock or resuming the embrace hold. I can see it has some uses but to do a X body just for itself is nothing. A X body must lead into something spectacular to be worth doing as far as I can see. flowrite

BEGIN QUOTE  Thanks for your replies, I live in the South West so no chance of attending your classes but teaching long routines is not confined to my area.  END QUOTE  One question I'd ask is which level classes do you go to? I'm not defending this style of teaching but as the level goes up the people attending the classes tend to want more and different combinations rather than spend time doing stuff they know or think they know. Also the teachers normally assume that people have come across many of the basic moves in a routine and so its more a case of connecting them rather than teaching from scratch. This theory is of course blown if you see this at beginners or improvers classes. If I go to classes then I may not remember the entire routine and don't really expect to but in some classes there'll be a little bit that I like and will take away with me. I can then try and fit it into the stuff that I already know and make that a bit more interesting. Where about in the SW are you? There's a couple of good teachers in the Bristol area that actually break down stuff and make sure people have it rather than doing all the complex stuff. Two that spring to mind are Joe (Tuesdays at Fat Cat) and Jules (who does one of the classes at Steam Rock on Thursdays).     BEGIN QUOTE  I have reached a point where I have had enough of classes, all I want to do is practise what I have learned.  END QUOTE  I'd try and do both if possible. My dancing only really started to improve when I did a lot more 'social' dancing rather than classes but its good to have new bits to try and add in and work on.  BEGIN QUOTE  :I don't really know why the X body is emphasised so much as most moves can be initiated without it.  END QUOTE  Depends what you mean by 'most moves'. Cross bodies tend to be used a lot as padding but they also form the basis of a lot more complex moves especially when you start putting in truns for the leader, follower or both. You can also put some of you own personality or style into cross bodies if you want (again for both leader and follower - I'm not intending to spark off another 'lets have a go at followers who style' debate). There's various videos on the net that may give you a few ideas for the osrt of thing I'm on about. Best sites I've seen are: http://www.imambo.tv and http://www.salsaloon.com/Videos.html A lot of the clips are on2 but there is some really nice stuff up there. Thanks Brendan

BEGIN QUOTE  I have been going to classes about twice a week for the last eight months. I go to different classes and teachers so that I can get gain an all round experience of the different styles of salsa. What I have found without exception is that all the teachers teach salsa in a routine framework so that you could get four distinct moves or figures rolled into a routine. I have to say I'm getting fed up with learning salsa this way. Learning a routine in a class even with complicated moves is not a measure of how good a dancer you are but how good you are at copying the intructor and remembering. It is a challenge for observation and memory that is all, not dancing skill. Sooo why teach salsa this way, is there not any other way? I have a salsa video tape which demonstrates each move seperately which makes it very easy to follow. Surely this method could be taught live in a class. The format could go as follows. The instructor demos the move. Then goes through it slowly until the class has got it. Then it is practiced with music even if it just four bars long. The students are then told to freestyle it in ther own time with music without any calling. Here the students might want to begin with a basic mambo. Okay so that is the first move learned. The second move is taught in the same way. How the students put them together is up to them. So there we have two moves learned which might take up to eight bars. I think eight bars of salsa is quite enough for one evening. Maybe four bars is enough even if the class only takes half an hour, at least that is one move the students can take home with them that they have got throughly fixed in their body/mind system. At a salsa party if you are dancing spontaneously in the moment you do not dance class taught routines. That is dancing in the head which will curtail your natural expression.  END QUOTE  i tend to agree with what you are saying  i come from a sport back ground where good coaches always talk about core skills the stuff that makes everything else work  shame you are not in the London area , there is a work shop called the move machine run by salsarapido, it lays the class out like circuit training with four instructors forming workstations you spend 10 minutes with each instructor then move on rotating round the class time permiting you complete 2 circuits learn 8 short routines:very simular to Robert Charlamagne video approach and with different instructors lots of contrast,  i'v always thought advanced dancers would benifit more from technique classes ,take a move then learn every variation of that move forward backwards what can it lead to ? where can it go ?how's it led? really know just that move inside out, would be nice on those occasions when you are dancing with a woman who's smiles makes your brain misfire and blank, to have something short and sweet to pull out give yu time to recover. maybe if instuctors took the 'shorts' approach to teaching they would run out of material ?     i think you would be suprised how many dancers in london do actually dance in memorised class routines,and i sopposed it is better than having a class with not enough to occupy your mind,  recently did a lambada class based on man turn woman turn man turn , that was the routine.

BEGIN QUOTE  i tend to agree with what you are saying  i come from a sport back ground where good coaches always talk about core skills the stuff that makes everything else work  shame you are not in the London area , there is a work shop called the move machine run by salsarapido, it lays the class out like circuit training with four instructors forming workstations you spend 10 minutes with each instructor then move on rotating round the class time permiting you complete 2 circuits learn 8 short routines:very simular to Robert Charlamagne video approach and with different instructors lots of contrast,  i'v always thought advanced dancers would benifit more from technique classes ,take a move then learn every variation of that move forward backwards what can it lead to ? where can it go ?how's it led? really know just that move inside out, would be nice on those occasions when you are dancing with a woman who's smiles makes your brain misfire and blank, to have something short and sweet to pull out give yu time to recover. maybe if instuctors took the 'shorts' approach to teaching they would run out of material ?     i think you would be suprised how many dancers in london do actually dance in memorised class routines,and i sopposed it is better than having a class with not enough to occupy your mind,  recently did a lambada class based on man turn woman turn man turn , that was the routine.    END QUOTE  Well len I like the sound of that method and the idea of discovering the possibilties of a move what it could lead to etc. Yes this would be for advanced dancers because you can't throw too many possibilties at an improver or they will get lost. I went to a party in Bournmouth last Saturday and there was a guest teacher who did the lesson. My worst scenario came true, a really long routine with difficult moves some of which were stupid and completley unleadable. I really can't understand what he was thinking of. Half of what we did would have been ample and the class might have finished feeling they had learned something and gained some confidence. I didn't see anyone dance any of what he taught.

BEGIN QUOTE  I went to a party in Bournmouth last Saturday and there was a guest teacher who did the lesson. My worst scenario came true, a really long routine with difficult moves some of which were stupid and completley unleadable. I really can't understand what he was thinking of. Half of what we did would have been ample and the class might have finished feeling they had learned something and gained some confidence. I didn't see anyone dance any of what he taught.  END QUOTE  I know 2 people who were teaching down there. Both of them possibly did long routines of difficult stuff on occasion. But everything they normally teach is leadable, if tricky. Some teachers try to satisfy both camps over time. i.e. teach moves moves moves for those people, and there are many of them, who look for that. But if you go week after week you will notice tht each weeks routine is related to the previous one. In this way they practice the technique, and show you different ways to use things and get into and out off moves.

BEGIN QUOTE  An idea i was toying with recently  END QUOTE  hire a pub hall for the night   organise a 'swap moves'event.  everyone splits cost of the hall,   someone brings a bag of CDs and a ghetto blaster,maybe even a few videos ?   off you go anyone know a good move that fits with this ?? it's amazing how much you can learn from the dancers around you.  really think it would be fun to just bounce ideas around without limits ,   trouble is it's mostly the men that seem interested , shame because there is no reason woman could not swap styling or just ask to practice ideas off a male partner...