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Subject: How do I get women to dance?
From: rejected (Reg Ekted)
Date: Thursday 5th September 2002, 8:07 pm

I've been learning to dance for a year now (learning salsa and leroc). At my dance lessons, women always dance with me when I ask them. Same at leroc clubs. But when I go to salsa clubs, I get turned down by lots of women and only a few will dance with me. Some men never seem to get turned down and some even get asked to dance by women. Is there something different about salsa? What do I need to do to get women to dance with me? Women what makes you decide whether to accept or reject a dance? Men how do you decide which women to ask to dance so you don't get turned down?

   

Subject: How do I get women to dance?
From: fenix (GP)
Date: Friday 6th September 2002, 9:02 am
Replying to: A message by rejected (Reg Ekted) posted on Thursday 5th September 2002, 8:07 pm

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Women what makes you decide whether to accept or reject a dance?
 END QUOTE 

As I don't know you, I can only speak from my perspective and tell you what I look for in a dance: 1) that the guy doesn't throw/push/shove/pull me around the dance floor (believe me, it's VERY unpleasant); 2) that he knows how to keep time in whatever style he's dancing, be it On1, On2, Cuban, etc; 3) that he doesn't spin me 10 times to show off to onlookers that he can actually do it; there aren't many guys who have a proper spinning technique, so when you're trying to make me spin more than is really necessary for the music or the dance, it isn't appreciated;

and finally, but most importantly,

- that he doesn't smell: body odour, alcohol breath, bad breath, etc. This point can't be stressed enough.

No doubt, there will be many angry replies to this email, however let me point out that this all comes from my personal experience and is only my list of criteria. Having spoken to a variety of other women dancers, they do agree on all of my points, and even had a few more to add which I didn't feel was necessary for this debate.

I choose my partners by watching them dance with other people first. That way I know his style and his timing, whether he's adapting to his partner's level and making sure she's protected from bashing into other couples. This last point is important, there are many men who don't look where they're leading their partner to and that is when you get accidents, like a poke in the eye, or a stiletto heel on the toes, or an elbow. I have danced with New York professional dancers and have always been grateful that they danced at my level; it made the dance very enjoyable for me, I wasn't stressed thinking that I needed to do some magical footwork to impress him, and they weren't stressed into thinking about some complicated turn patterns to impress me. So everyone wins.

However, I also do adapt my dancing to the level of my partner, if they are a beginner: I don't do any fancy footwork that might throw them off time, and I don't do shines. I try and follow their lead and gently give them a few pointers and tips; ie: do not hold the girl by the wrist, make your steps smaller, etc. I have found that these have been well received. Of course, these tips have to be given in a tactful way. And I have found myself asking the same guy for a second dance if I feel that he's open to learning more.

All being said and done, I hardly ever say no to people (thus the bad experiences listed above!) because I know how horrible it is to be rejected. At the end of the day, everyone has been a beginner at some point in time and should remember how they felt then. But I do think that there is a minimum criteria that people should abide to (body odour) and I am learning to be more ruthless in my choices.

I do hope that you will find the right dance partners you can enjoy a dance with. Don't always go for the flashy ones, most of the time they aren't that great!

Happy dancing!

   

Subject: How do I get women to dance?
From: Pres (Preston Palon)
Date: Friday 6th September 2002, 10:01 am
Replying to: A message by rejected (Reg Ekted) posted on Thursday 5th September 2002, 8:07 pm

Actually there are huge differences between different Salsa events: There are small clubs with a regular crowd where the code is that everybody dances with everybody, as long as you are not too drunk, don't smell and are not dangerous to dance with. Then there are places that are no different from fashionable mainstream night clubs; Women say no most of the time. Usually it's quite easy to tell from advertising and appearance of the venue which category it belongs to.

It's the same with women: Some have a principle that they dance with everyone who asks them (as long as you are not too drunk, don't smell and are not dangerous to dance with), others are really picky. By observing people at clubs you can learn who is more likely to say yes.

Women who want to dance a lot often do quite clever things to ensure their success, and men can apply the same principles. Of course there are the obvious things like paying attention to your appearance and smiling and being friendly. Some women use the class before dancing to prepare things: If they want to dance with you they may compliment you ("Your lead is good!", etc...) or do something else that will ensure that either you will ask them or you will say yes if they ask you. Also, some women spot improver level leads who seem like they will become regulars, and then groom these people into regular long-term dance partners by helping them to improve and become part of the local scene. Men can do similar things...

Getting asked to dance by women isn't necessarily difficult. This works for me: First you need to find a place where there are more women than men, and where people come to dance rather than pose. Then you just need to look shy and eager to dance.

Finally, what works better than anything else is practising and improving your dancing. You have probably noticed what happens when a really good lead walks in: Women form a queue, or sometimes they just all attack at the same time. There are men who can hardly take a break to go to the toilet, because so many women are desperate to dance with them. It has little to do with their looks or personality, but everything to do with their ability to dance and ability to lead well.

   

Subject: How do I get women to dance?
From: Cosilongo (Matthew Cooke)
Date: Friday 6th September 2002, 1:06 pm
Replying to: A message by rejected (Reg Ekted) posted on Thursday 5th September 2002, 8:07 pm

Try going to a different club. The atmosphere in clubs varies a lot. I have found that in some places I always got a dance when I asked, others there are lots of refusals. I avoid going back to places where refusals are too frequent (I find also that in those places even some of the girls that do get up and dance can be no fun to dance with).

I find that there is something that the girls that are more likely to get up and dance do with their mouths that gives you a clue. They kind of turn the corners up and sometimes even show their teeth

The key thing is to pick someone that is friendly to start with, and smile yourself. Then other girls that see you dancing will think you are a good person to dance with, because you and your partner both look happy. You will have to be quick, because all the friendly girls will be dancing most of the time.

As for girls asking you to dance, it mostly happens to better dancers, but I find that in friendly places the occasional girl will ask me, if I am hanging about near the dance floor looking like I fancy a dance.

 BEGIN QUOTE 
I've been learning to dance for a year now (learning salsa and leroc). At my dance lessons, women always dance with me when I ask them. Same at leroc clubs. But when I go to salsa clubs, I get turned down by lots of women and only a few will dance with me. Some men never seem to get turned down and some even get asked to dance by women. Is there something different about salsa? What do I need to do to get women to dance with me? Women what makes you decide whether to accept or reject a dance? Men how do you decide which women to ask to dance so you don't get turned down?
 END QUOTE 

   

Subject: How do I get women to dance?
From: ian (Ian Finch)
Date: Friday 6th September 2002, 1:54 pm
Replying to: A message by Pres (Preston Palon) posted on Friday 6th September 2002, 10:01 am

Have to agree with what Pres is saying here.

The key thing (in most places) is the quality of your dancing. You need to be able to dance well technically (in time with a good lead) and with good style. The style gets you noticed in the first place and makes it easier to get those first dances. Your technique is what gets you further dances with that woman (and her friends - if she enjoys her dance with you, she'll tell her friends - if she hates her dance with you, she'll tell her friends).

Pres is also spot on about the clubs. There are "friendly" clubs and "cliquey" clubs. Sometimes, becoming a "regular" at a club will make it much easier to get dances. For example, some clubs seem to be cliquey because there are a lot of men on the pull at them. The women who are there for dancing will tend to turn down any man they don't know, because they think the man's interests are more concerned with dancing of a horizontal nature than of a vertical nature. Once these women see that you do really want to dance (because you've become a bit of a regular at the club), they will be more likely to dance with you.

Cheers,
               Ian

   

Subject: How do I get women to dance?
From: Cosilongo (Matthew Cooke)
Date: Friday 6th September 2002, 2:51 pm
Replying to: A message by ian (Ian Finch) posted on Friday 6th September 2002, 1:54 pm

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Have to agree with what Pres is saying here.

The key thing (in most places) is the quality of your dancing. You need to be able to dance well technically (in time with a good lead) and with good style. The style gets you noticed in the first place and makes it easier to get those first dances. Your technique is what gets you further dances with that woman (and her friends - if she enjoys her dance with you, she'll tell her friends - if she hates her dance with you, she'll tell her friends).

 END QUOTE 

A bit of a catch22 situation ... you need to be a good dancer to get a dance, but you need to dance to get to be a good dancer!

Its true that it gets easier to get dances as you get better, but fortunately there are quite a few places where even not so good dancers can get a dance. I think friendliness is as important as style and technique in getting dances.

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Pres is also spot on about the clubs. There are "friendly" clubs and "cliquey" clubs. Sometimes, becoming a "regular" at a club will make it much easier to get dances. For example, some clubs seem to be cliquey because there are a lot of men on the pull at them. The women who are there for dancing will tend to turn down any man they don't know, because they think the man's interests are more concerned with dancing of a horizontal nature than of a vertical nature. Once these women see that you do really want to dance (because you've become a bit of a regular at the club), they will be more likely to dance with you.
 END QUOTE 

It takes a bit of dedication to become a regular at a club where you keep getting turned down when you ask for a dance!

Some clubs seem cliquey because they are cliquey!
  

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Cheers,
               Ian
 END QUOTE 

   

Subject: How do I get women to dance?
From: Dave G
Date: Friday 6th September 2002, 3:23 pm
Replying to: A message by rejected (Reg Ekted) posted on Thursday 5th September 2002, 8:07 pm

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Men how do you decide which women to ask to dance so you don't get turned down?
 END QUOTE 

It's all in your attitude. You're selling yourself, so think of yourself as a product. Good presentation is always important. Make sure you look good (and smell good) and present the right image by standing well (no slouching or negative body language), making and keeping eye contact and smiling.

Staying with the "selling yourself" idea, take a leaf out of the standard salesman's manual and don't ask questions which the customer can say no to.

If you say "do you want to dance?", it's easy for her to say "no".

If you say "let's dance", you're making it more difficult for her to say "no", but there's still an implied question in there.

If you say "this is a great track, come on", take her hand and start towards the dance floor, it's much more difficult for her to say "no", because there's no opportunity.

Salesmen are also trained to handle negative answers. If they are trying to sell insurance and the customer says "I'm already insured" or "maybe in a few months" then the sale has gone. So they will say things like "when does your current insurance expire" or "a few months? Do you mean November?" and use that to say something like "I'll ring you back about this in November".

In the same way, if a woman says to you "I'm tired, what about later?", you can say "Okay, catch your breath, we'll dance later" (notice again the "no question" rule, you don't say "Okay, catch your breath, do you want to dance later?"). Don't just walk away without saying anything or with a shrug. Then make sure you go back to her a bit later and try again.

Also make sure you've got the right attitude in your self. Don't seem desperate for a dance. Think to yourself that it's no big deal whether you dance with her or not. After all, there are loads of women in the club and not so many men. If she doesn't dance with you, it's her loss and not yours. Put the "no" behind you immediately and go off and ask someone else.

dG

   

Subject: How do I get women to dance?
From: Jazzman (O Akman)
Date: Friday 6th September 2002, 5:35 pm
Replying to: A message by Dave G posted on Friday 6th September 2002, 3:23 pm

 BEGIN QUOTE 
If you say "do you want to dance?", it's easy for her to say "no".
 END QUOTE 

 BEGIN QUOTE 
If you say "let's dance", you're making it more difficult for her to say "no", but there's still an implied question in there.

If you say "this is a great track, come on", take her hand and start towards the dance floor, it's much more difficult for her to say "no", because there's no opportunity.

 END QUOTE 

The adage about horses and river springs to mind. Juat because you are both on the dance floor and have assumed the position, so to speak, does not mean you get a dance. All she has to do is not follow!

   

Subject: How do I get women to dance?
From: lizard (Lizard)
Date: Saturday 7th September 2002, 7:18 pm
Replying to: A message by rejected (Reg Ekted) posted on Thursday 5th September 2002, 8:07 pm

Keep asking! The bloke who said that by saying "let's dance" rather than "would you like to dance" is right... as a female dancer, I would more likely dance with someone who did this.

On a bit of a different note, there are some women out there who are more confident dancing in the clubs than in the social dancing after the lessons. There is some pressure there after the classes to do your very best dancing... and quite a few people dancing to their limit.. so as a dancer with a little less experience, I find it daunting.... I'm sure I'm not the only one!

The guys I tend to reject in the clubs are those that have been leering on the edge of the floor, who have no obvious sense of rhythm and ... yes, smell. Staring directly at my boobs when asking also does not help!

 BEGIN QUOTE 
I've been learning to dance for a year now (learning salsa and leroc). At my dance lessons, women always dance with me when I ask them. Same at leroc clubs. But when I go to salsa clubs, I get turned down by lots of women and only a few will dance with me. Some men never seem to get turned down and some even get asked to dance by women. Is there something different about salsa? What do I need to do to get women to dance with me? Women what makes you decide whether to accept or reject a dance? Men how do you decide which women to ask to dance so you don't get turned down?
 END QUOTE 

   

Subject: How do I get women to dance?
From: rejected (Reg Ekted)
Date: Sunday 8th September 2002, 5:11 pm
Replying to: A message by Pres (Preston Palon) posted on Friday 6th September 2002, 10:01 am

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Actually there are huge differences between different Salsa events: There are small clubs with a regular crowd where the code is that everybody dances with everybody, as long as you are not too drunk, don't smell and are not dangerous to dance with. Then there are places that are no different from fashionable mainstream night clubs; Women say no most of the time. Usually it's quite easy to tell from advertising and appearance of the venue which category it belongs to.
 END QUOTE 

I'm not sure how to tell the difference? It's easiest for me to get to clubs in central london. I've been to a club in Leicester Square on a Saturday and a club in Charing Cross Road on a Monday. Don't know the names, but maybe someone knows what I'l talking about. How do you rate these for ease of getting dances?

Any suggestions for better places to get dances in central london?

   

Subject: How to get asked to dance....
From: Tom
Date: Sunday 8th September 2002, 7:43 pm
Replying to: A message by lizard (Lizard) posted on Saturday 7th September 2002, 7:18 pm

Make your lead really forceful so that the woman has to go the right way .

If she still can't follow it, stop her and explain patiently where she's going wrong.

If you dance with someone inexperienced, tell other women you know what a bad dancer she is so they'll know it's not your fault.

Explain that "Women don't like dancing with me because I'm too good for them - I show them up."

Remember that when a woman says 'Thank you' at the end of the dance and walks off, it means she wants you to follow her .

   

Subject: How do I get women to dance?
From: ian (Ian Finch)
Date: Sunday 8th September 2002, 10:44 pm
Replying to: A message by rejected (Reg Ekted) posted on Sunday 8th September 2002, 5:11 pm

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Any suggestions for better places to get dances in central london?
 END QUOTE 

Try SOS on Sundays. It's got friendly people, great dances and excellent music. More details on my London listings page and on Leon Rose's site (www.salsalife.co.uk).

Cheers,
                                 Ian

   

Subject: How to get asked to dance....
From: fenix (GP)
Date: Monday 9th September 2002, 8:51 am
Replying to: A message by Tom posted on Sunday 8th September 2002, 7:43 pm

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Make your lead really forceful so that the woman has to go the right way .
 END QUOTE 

I wouldn't dance with you if you're holding my hands as if you want to break them!

 BEGIN QUOTE 
If she still can't follow it, stop her and explain patiently where she's going wrong.
 END QUOTE 

She's probably not following you because you're not leading her correctly!

 BEGIN QUOTE 
If you dance with someone inexperienced, tell other women you know what a bad dancer she is so they'll know it's not your fault.
 END QUOTE 

That's just pathetic!

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Explain that "Women don't like dancing with me because I'm too good for them - I show them up."
 END QUOTE 

Er... whatever makes you feel better.

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Remember that when a woman says 'Thank you' at the end of the dance and walks off, it means she wants you to follow her .
 END QUOTE 

Actually, it's probably because she's too polite to let you know how bad you were and is hoping you won't ask her again.

 BEGIN QUOTE 
 END QUOTE 

   

Subject: How to get asked to dance....
From: fenix (GP)
Date: Monday 9th September 2002, 8:51 am
Replying to: A message by Tom posted on Sunday 8th September 2002, 7:43 pm

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Make your lead really forceful so that the woman has to go the right way .
 END QUOTE 

I wouldn't dance with you if you're holding my hands as if you want to break them!

 BEGIN QUOTE 
If she still can't follow it, stop her and explain patiently where she's going wrong.
 END QUOTE 

She's probably not following you because you're not leading her correctly!

 BEGIN QUOTE 
If you dance with someone inexperienced, tell other women you know what a bad dancer she is so they'll know it's not your fault.
 END QUOTE 

That's just pathetic!

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Explain that "Women don't like dancing with me because I'm too good for them - I show them up."
 END QUOTE 

Er... whatever makes you feel better.

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Remember that when a woman says 'Thank you' at the end of the dance and walks off, it means she wants you to follow her .
 END QUOTE 

Actually, it's probably because she's too polite to let you know how bad you were and is hoping you won't ask her again.

   

Subject: How to get asked to dance....
From: Dave F (Dave Fenton)
Date: Monday 9th September 2002, 10:40 am
Replying to: A message by fenix (GP) posted on Monday 9th September 2002, 8:51 am

 BEGIN QUOTE 
I wouldn't dance with you if you're holding my hands as if you want to break them!

She's probably not following you because you're not leading her correctly!

 ther women you know what a bad dancer she is

That's just pathetic!

Er... whatever makes you feel better.

Actually, it's probably because she's too polite to let you know how bad you were and is hoping you won't ask her again.

 END QUOTE 

Erm... I think Tom was taking the p when he posted his message! I don't think he meant it to be read as though this is what HE ACTUALLY DOES(at least I hope he didn't)

Dave

   

Subject: How to get asked to dance....
From: fenix (GP)
Date: Monday 9th September 2002, 10:50 am
Replying to: A message by Dave F (Dave Fenton) posted on Monday 9th September 2002, 10:40 am

 BEGIN QUOTE 
Erm... I think Tom was taking the p when he posted his message! I don't think he meant it to be read as though this is what HE ACTUALLY DOES(at least I hope he didn't)

 END QUOTE 

I do hope you're right as well. However, there are indeed men out there who do that.

Just wanted to put him on the right path, in case he was one of those.

   

Subject: How do I get women to dance?
From: Pres (Preston Palon)
Date: Monday 9th September 2002, 11:44 am
Replying to: A message by rejected (Reg Ekted) posted on Sunday 8th September 2002, 5:11 pm

 BEGIN QUOTE 
I've been to a club in Leicester Square on a Saturday and a club in Charing Cross Road on a Monday. Don't know the names, but maybe someone knows what I'l talking about.
 END QUOTE 

Argh! Argh! You have been to the worst possible places! The Leicester Square one is Salsa Palladium. A nice club, but the most difficult place to get dances that I know. The one at Charing Cross Road is Bar Salsa. Many genuine Latinos go there. They go there in groups and often only dance with their friends. Also, because of the location it attracts random passers-by, and that also makes things more difficult.

Ian already mentioned SOS, which is a friendly place with emphasis on dancing. However, you don't automatically get a "yes" there either. Number one reason for rejections in SOS is that it attracts quite a few really good dancers. Quite understandably, many of them mainly want to dance with other really good dancers, and they know who the other ones are...

In my opinion your best strategy in SOS would be to go there early, do the class, and then ask the women who did the same class immediately afterwards. Women there are more likely to say no if 1a: they have never seen you before, 1b: they have never seen you dancing, 1c: they saw you dancing and your partner wasn't enjoying it, and 2: towards the end of the evening (10-11), when people have had their fix and they start chatting with their friends instead of dancing.

It might actually be better to travel to suburbs rather than stay in Central London. First, these places tend to attract slightly older crowd. When you ask a woman who is 20 years older than you are, she can feel fairly confident that it really is dancing you are interested in. Also these places have the same people every week. This means that your first visit might be difficult, but after a couple of weeks they start regarding you as a regular, and most women will be happy to dance with you.

It is also possible to become "a regular" in Central London Salsa crowd. This is not so easy because of the huge number of beginners, tourists, out of town visitors and once a month dancers who frequent these venues. It is more likely to happen once 1. your dancing is good enough that you are able to give a reasonably enjoyable experience to women, and 2. if you go out dancing several nights every week, so that the other addicts start recognizing your face despite of the huge number of faces in Central London Salsa scene.