Just need to to make a comment-- Would everyone please stop attributing salsa on 2 to torres-- Ive been teaching for over fifty years and can assure you mambo on 2 was around before he was born !! ( or at least in kindergarden ) the main proponents of mambo in the u.s. were the chain schools -- namely arthur murray-- they brought it ( mambo ) to the general publics attention-- not to mention you offend every cuban with a preposterous claim. If you insist on giving credit to any of the main proponents of the genre- you must always include Cuban pete-- Mambo aces-- Rocki Mari and the inimitable Steve Peck probably the best of all--I could add more but I think you get the point-- I feel priviledged to have been around that scene and still see very few who could equal their prowess -- Siempre-- Salsa withalma y corazon

Subject: on2 before torres? surely not!
From: sweavo (Steve Carter)
Date: 18th Oct 2005, 3:59 pm
Replying to: A message by quickstep (terence levine) posted on 16th Oct 2005, 11:30 am

BEGIN QUOTE  Just need to to make a comment-- Would everyone please stop attributing salsa on 2 to torres-- Ive been teaching for over fifty years and can assure you mambo on 2 was around before he was born !!  END QUOTE  Heheh. While that may be true, the basis of this chatroom is for people who dance on2 "eddie torres style". However made-up and/or shallow that may be, it's the foundation of this chat forum. Really, "eddie torres style" is a short way of saying: New York moves step on 1,2,3 5,6,7 ladies break forward on 2, gents break forward on 6 I think it was a (failed) attempt to avoid having a group full of people saying "that's not on 2! THIS is on 2!!!" That said, thanks for the list of names, I'll be looking them up and reading with interest anything I find. I got the "Dance Salsa Nightclub Style" dvds with Eddie Torres because I wanted to form a point of view on syncopation of the basic step, and found that on2 as I dance it is a lot more refined than how ET danced it a decade or so ago. I assume this is largely due to Frankie Martinez bringing his martial-arts attention to detail and training discipline to the mix. I agree that ET is probably given more reverence than is really merited by his dancing. I guess his big contribution was the clarity of his teaching and the broadness of his reach.

Subject:  Music
From: quickstep (terence levine)
Date: 29th Oct 2005, 1:04 pm
Replying to: A message by sweavo (Steve Carter) posted on 18th Oct 2005, 3:59 pm

BEGIN QUOTE    Just to add more grist to this mill-- music is written in 2/4-- 3/4 4/4 and sometimes 6/8-- if you wish to count-- learn that a forward and back basic ( salsa or mambo ) should be counted-- 1-2-3-4 and 2-2-3-4 signifing two bars of music-- as are all steps and groups of steps-- this mis conception comes from people watching too many stage choreographers counting down the beats to the next acsending bar-- all routine s are timed at bars per minute-- the only possible way you can have accurate beginnings and endings to sequences taking into account pick up bars-- if you find this a little too complex then get together with someone who really understands music  END QUOTE

Subject:  Music
From: sweavo (Steve Carter)
Date: 31st Oct 2005, 12:23 pm
Replying to: A message by quickstep (terence levine) posted on 29th Oct 2005, 1:04 pm

I've started every new beginner's class I've run with an explanation of the relationship between bar sof music and the dancer's measure in this style. Pick-up bars are under-appreciated by dancers IMO. Probably because they're hard for non-musicians to anticipate.

Subject:  Music
From: Juan
Date: 31st Oct 2005, 1:39 pm
Replying to: A message by quickstep (terence levine) posted on 29th Oct 2005, 1:04 pm

BEGIN QUOTE  Just to add more grist to this mill-- music is written in 2/4-- 3/4 4/4 and sometimes 6/8-- if you wish to count-- learn that a forward and back basic ( salsa or mambo ) should be counted-- 1-2-3-4 and 2-2-3-4 signifing two bars of music-- as are all steps and groups of steps-- this mis conception comes from people watching too many stage choreographers counting down the beats to the next acsending bar-- all routine s are timed at bars per minute-- the only possible way you can have accurate beginnings and endings to sequences taking into account pick up bars-- if you find this a little too complex then get together with someone who really understands music  END QUOTE  The reason that we count 1,2,3,4, 5,6,7,8 is because the clave rhythm which Salsa is based on has 8 beats to it. The forward and back basic step is tied into this rhythm, so counting in this way emphasises that the 1 and the 5 are different. A dancer should be able to hear just one bar of Salsa and know whether that bar starts with the "1" or the "5". They should also be able to know when two "1" bars occur straight after each other (i.e. the music goes 1,2,3,4, 1,2,3,4, 5,6,7,8) and change their footwork accordingly. The reason we count 1,2,3,4, 5,6,7,8 is to reinforce the link between the clave rhythm and our footwork. It is the clave we are actually dancing to rather than the beats of the bar (although obviously the 4/4 bar structure is aligned on top of the clave, so it is easy for dancers, and even teachers, to miss this subtle distinction).

Subject:  Music
From: quickstep (terence levine)
Date: 31st Oct 2005, 5:06 pm
Replying to: A message by Juan posted on 31st Oct 2005, 1:39 pm

BEGIN QUOTE   I think you are missing the point-- you are talking way above the head of the average beginner-- those terms should not be relevant when dealing with the average student beg/interm. class. It is difficult for most people to pick out the first beat of a bar-- let alone clave-- have been teaching Mambo/ salsa for nearly fifty years and primarily over the last few years to latinos in the states-- even they dont get it !!I have taught famous world class musicians who could not keep on time !! so-- to expect any thing more than a basic ryhthm explanation to most students is akin to talking to a brick wall--The reason for my interjection to a music discussion is to try and enlighten and simplify the easiest way to deal with complex rhythms ( I do incidentally teach 30 different dances )for the average student. And if you you are not aware ( dont know yor background ) Salsa was originally danced ( and still is in p.r. in some cases ) with a double time rhythm-- that is to say-- a tap on the 2nd beat of the bar and breaking on 3-- this is not uncommon in the states in the true latino clubs-- that is true style street salsa -- and for anyone trying to teach it that way --buena suerte-- far too complex-- if its a style you can master naturally-- have at it-- I do--- regards to all  END QUOTE

Subject:  Music
From: Brendan (Brendan Brolly)
Date: 2nd Nov 2005, 11:32 am
Replying to: A message by quickstep (terence levine) posted on 31st Oct 2005, 5:06 pm

Does it really matter as long as the student can understand when the teacher means? As long as they have a common frame of reference then it shouldn't make a different whether they count it 1-8, 1-4 or 1-6. The 1-8 count seems to work fairly well with the style of salsa taught over here (in the UK) as the leaders (and followers) are usually doing something different each side of the clave and remembering to do something on 6 is easier than doing it on the 2nd 2. It's also used by most teachers I've come across (though I have done a lesson where the teacher got up to 12 at one point). Brendan

Subject:  Music
From: quickstep (terence levine)
Date: 2nd Nov 2005, 12:46 pm
Replying to: A message by Brendan (Brendan Brolly) posted on 2nd Nov 2005, 11:32 am

BEGIN QUOTE  Brendan-- possibly not in the early stages of learning - but when one gets to complex groups where more than 2 bars of music are employed- then counting by bars for the teacher-- gives and defines the sequence more readily and should changes and or mistakes need correcting--e.g.-- third step fifth bar should be -- etc.--I guess being a trained teacher-- I will never understand ( guess I have an answer ) why people think it is more difficult by bars-- guess it is what you get used too . Same reason why people teach breaking on one .  END QUOTE

Subject:  Music
From: Brendan (Brendan Brolly)
Date: 2nd Nov 2005, 1:06 pm
Replying to: A message by quickstep (terence levine) posted on 2nd Nov 2005, 12:46 pm

Not convinced I'd agree. With the basic step, you get back to where you started every two bars so to me it makes more sense to use that as the repeat cycle rather than half that. I'd apply the same to music and normally talk in terms of whole claves rather than bars. If you go to longer phrases, why is it easier to count twice as many?

Subject:  Music
From: quickstep (terence levine)
Date: 2nd Nov 2005, 8:23 pm
Replying to: A message by Brendan (Brendan Brolly) posted on 2nd Nov 2005, 1:06 pm

Last word on this for me-- I can only tell you that in the ballroom world- all exams are predicated on counting in beats and bars ( the way music is written )-- I dont make up the rules- I only observe them-- being a former examiner for a major society , i can assure you that all soc. conduct exams for dance teachers with the same method and have done so for over seventy years. and - not every thing always returns to the same position from a forward basic--and finally-- I am not out to change your mind-- I only attempt to illuminate

Subject:  Music
From: quickstep (terence levine)
Date: 2nd Nov 2005, 8:24 pm
Replying to: A message by Brendan (Brendan Brolly) posted on 2nd Nov 2005, 1:06 pm

Last word on this for me-- I can only tell you that in the ballroom world- all exams are predicated on counting in beats and bars ( the way music is written )-- I dont make up the rules- I only observe them-- being a former examiner for a major society , i can assure you that all soc. conduct exams for dance teachers with the same method and have done so for over seventy years. and - not every thing always returns to the same position from a forward basic--and finally-- I am not out to change your mind-- I only attempt to illuminate

Subject:  Music
From: sweavo (Steve Carter)
Date: 12th Dec 2005, 11:15 am
Replying to: A message by Juan posted on 31st Oct 2005, 1:39 pm

BEGIN QUOTE  The reason that we count 1,2,3,4, 5,6,7,8 is because the clave rhythm which Salsa is based on has 8 beats to it.  END QUOTE  As an aside, Tito Puente himself would count the clave actually on the clave, like this: 1..2..3...4.5... That must have annoyed the hell out of some of the members of his band!